What a terrible string of stories.

I could never, ever even contemplate harming my children the way some of those fathers did. I would expect no matter what grief I was feeling, I'd be more likely to take it out on myself then ever harm my child, but that's just me.

By the same token, you have to wonder how badly these dads were hurting for them to even contemplate harming the children. Where's the help and support for dads like this in the system? We're all about protecting the woman and the kids, the dads are always neglected - I guess the 'big men just suck it up and get on with it' attitude that's so prevailant out there promotes that ignorance.

Dads hurt too, it's just not politically correct for us to show it.

Maggie's comments were pretty nasty, but in a way it's understandable too. I definitely feel for the dads in this situation, but I can't ignore the fact they're harming innocent kids in the bargain. Nothing gets my blood boiling more than bring harm to little ones...

Hi Desertraptor,

The question is not whether some mothers are callous and deceitful – they are.

In a way, Mr Paul Kent’s article is addressed to this type of mother – to educate her. The lesson is, “Don’t force the father to jump overboard. He might take the children with him. Bear in mind that when a father (or anybody else for that matter) snaps, don’t expect him to act rationally. Not even an AVO can deter him. Nobody in his right mind would do such a monstrous act. But, given enough provocation, you’ll never know what he will do.”

It’s good of you to put this article in this forum. It is a healthy sign. It means that people are really reading our messages. Now, everybody knows it all. The family tragedies in this article show that we are not just bullsh*tting. This is really a very serious problem.

I’m sure that this will greatly help in agitating the lawmakers. I can only hope that it will not fall into deaf ears. Otherwise, the future generation of children will continue to suffer the same fate as our children.



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Yes, displaced dads, the game is on.
Write your saga.
The pen is mightier than the sword.

Hi All

I honestly can not see how a Mum or Dad think that their children would be better off dead.

Even when a child is inflicted with a condition that has effected them from birth, especially one that effects their intellegence.

If a decision is made by an adult to terminate their life because they can not cope with things, there is little that can be done for them except find them help before this stage.

But to kill a child ??????

There is no aspect of it that can be viewed in a justifiable or moral light and it certainly isn't an act of love. I can not understand how anyone could condone this act of murder which involves inocent victims.

Altricio Tan I'm sorry but if they wan't to do something that will show the kids mother then keep fighting and gain time with the kids, if you can't then be there for when they get older and they come looking for a father..

YES they are seriouse unjust problems committed against Father and Children but the idea of support groups is to help people through difficult times and to look at peacfull pro-active way's to get CONTACT with children.

I don't believe the article shows that we are not Bullshitting, I think it shows we have a long way to go to educate people in other way's of dealing with their situation.

Actions such as this do no good for changing laws to the benefit of children, they will have the reverse effect and see fathers kept further away from their children.

I hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears either and I hope the government at least here in Australia works harder to listen to the benefits of 50/50 parenting and such, not only to help with contact problems but also to help our children have the best life resourcec availible Dad and Mum in their lives.......

I didn't notice much mention of parents who had no contact at the time or before the crime, but rather access to their children. We can't assume that this played any part in these childrens murders. But we do know what these Fathers did to show their disagreement with their situation is unacceptable in any situation.

Why the children ????????????????????

D4E

Nobody in his right mind condones such a monstrous act. But, believe me, when I was at that stage, it really scared the shit out of me that I might do it.

I was talking about the father who was forced to jump overboard. I was talking about the father who was driven into insanity. I was talking about the father who could no longer be bothered to inform the government of the price he and his children have to pay for bureaucratic arrogance.

It's needless to tell a father that slaughtering his children is wrong. Every father knows. Yes, it is total madness - no doubt about it. But when his mind is twisted, don't expect him to act rationally.

One media comment on that Wilberforce family tragedy was, "The father should have been given professional counselling."

I was lucky that I had the money to pay a private clinical psychologist. Besides, it was required due to my wife's allegations. Otherwise, I'd have had no counselling at all. I seriously doubt that many fathers would have this opportunity. And, speaking of support groups, how many have adequate professional therapists qualified to provide this kind of counselling?

Every dad in distress needs professional help (counselling, therapy, whatever). The problem is that the government doesn't give a shit about him.

One of the items in the AVO imposed on me was to let me have contact with the children through a family friend. When my wife refused to comply, I contacted the police and was told, "It's not our job. You have to see a solicitor. Blah, blah, blah"

Historically, whenever there was domestic violence, the mother and the children were taken to a refuge shelter. When the number of AVO cases became alarmingly large, the AVO law was revised to automatically throw the father out of the family home, detaching him from his children. That saved a lot of tax money on maintaining the refuge shelters. Note that, while the number was appalling, one should not forget that the AVO was a very much abused law. It still is.

Going back to Mr Paul Kent's article, he mentioned only a few incidents. God knows how many there really are here in Australia. What happens when the number of incidents becomes alarmingly large? Bear in mind that, when the father loses his mind, not even an AVO can deter him. Time will come when, instead of issuing the father an AVO and throwing him out of the house, he will be thrown into jail to ensure that the children are safe if his mind snaps.

And what happens when the jail becomes congested? Oh well, some fathers will have to be executed to save tax money on constructing/maintaining new prisons.

This is really one of the major problems in the Family Law system that must be addressed to have an effective reform on the system. The question is not whether some fathers can become so crazy they take their own lives and/or their children's lives - they can. In fact, the closer the father is to his children, the more vulnerable he is to becoming crazy. And the more he will need professional help.

The problem is the system. It is in one hell of a mess. We have, a) People abusing the system; b) Unscrupulous lawyers; c) Family Court in crisis; d) Fathers taking their own lives and/or their children's lives; e) What else?

This usually happens when a system operates below the radar screen of accountability.



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The bottom line is, why should the mother be dictating the terms and the father has to go through all that hassle of fighting every step of the way just to see his children?

Hi guys and girls. Don't be too offended by Maggies comments, instead you should take pity on her. Shooting your mouth off with only a little bit of knowledge of which you are speaking about only gets you into trouble anyway and we need to remember that she is slinging off at people who are at there wits end and have proven that they are capable of anything. With that in mind I wouldn't like to be her. I would like however to help try and make her understand if I thought she was capable. We get nowhere arguing with the ones who only think they know what they are talking about, especially if they aren't doing anything to change things either way.

Remember that opinions are like rear ends, everyone has got one, and a lot of those are full of.....

It is good however to see that other people are hurt, disturbed and impassioned by the senseless death of anyone, because I can assure you that it bothers the hell out of me.

Hang in there
Chris

Hi all,
Well I feel confused about what was written, for what purpose???
I am also so very angry about the article and the events contained within.
Though primarily sad that Children's lives were taken and this is the greatest tragedy of all.
I would like to suggest some possibly controversial opinions, though please remember it is late and I have had 2 glasses of red after dinner!!!
Firstly, as a rule of thumb, women tend to have much more government and social support in all area of their life than men. I believe that this does give them a huge sense of strength, though it can also be a weakness when abused and not deal with their own problems. In saying this, women have the opportunity in the support available and equally in their upbringing to talk about their problems, to vent and therefore not get to exploding points. I believe that if women had the same limited resources and limited upbringing surrounding communicating your feelings like men generally do, then I believe we would hear a hell of a lot more about children losing their lives.
Secondly, it is my belief that men in some ways have allowed this situation to happen. Honestly, most MP's/senators are men, most senior positions in companies are men, yet we don't do anything to help each other!!!! I might be a bit harsh on us blokes, but the reality is, no use blaming others for something we could easily take control and start to turn things around in a serious manner. To give you a further example, how many senior managers do you know judge a worker as being hard working because they start early and finish late??? Well in my experience those that hang around after work and get in early, generally stuff around at those times and spend more time during the day being less efficient, do you know the personality I am talking about? Yet this senior manager judges the book by its cover, works back late himself for the FEAR of peer pressure of being perceived to be working hard all the time. The reality is us men need to be working normal hours that we are employed for, giving us the time to grow with our families and most importantly grow ourselves so internally we are happy.

In summary, may those children who were mentioned in the article RIP, for I hope that their precious lives in heaven find some peace. For the fathers, I wish them the same, regardless of their actions. For all of us still here as fathers, well lets learn from these mens mistakes and take a positive charge of our lives!!

P.S. Off my high horse now, sorry..... yes have felt at a total loss myself as a father, though taking his life to be honest has never become a thought that has crossed my mind, may god help me if I ever get to that point!!

Being able to walk a mile in someone elses shoes.

Until it happened to me, I had no concept of the depth of feeling and dispare family breakdown can bring to a Father (and mother). Even the act of seeking support can compound the situation.
Telling my story to "experts" and "professionals" brought subtle looks of disbelief in many cases and outright derision at other times. I felt the system wanted to label me a angry and violent rejected father, so I fit their model. The most distressing of all was watching and sharing the pain my child suffered.

I wondered whether walking away would be best, I wondered whether ending it all might be the solution. In the end, I took a up a new hobby, following a piece of advice which at first had compounded the situation. (How do you take up a new hobby when C$A is taking all the financial resourses?). My hobby is the pursuit of Knowledge about the "system" and to see it change.

I now feel some empathy for parents who take the life of their children as well as their own. It is mostly done in moments of extreme dispair and I believe they feel it is a mercy killing. I do not condone it, but I suspect I understand it.

I recall that every time the issue of my child spending more than the basic EOW with me, I was asked was I trying to punish his mother. They were not interested in the punishment (neglect and pain) inflicted upon him or myself. I spoke with solicitors, supposedly Family Law experts, who could not understand why a father wanted to spend time with a baby, let alone be involved, career was everthing. I spoke with Relationship experts who consider that anything which did not allow Mum to do whatever she pleased as "controlling". I spoke with child experts who outright dismissed my concerns for my son, "mommy knows best" was their reply and I was interfering.


Mum and I now communicate reasonably well. Our son has mostly accepted the situation (not entirely). It has taken nearly 5 years, since before my son was born. And now I need to rebuild my life. But the journey was worth it, of that I am sure.

Yes I believe I understand. It is very difficult to see the future, any future when you feel hopeless, dispair, alienateted from society. Again I do not condone, but I cannot condemn either. It is society that must accept the collective guilt.

Lets face it, at the end of the day it remains the colocial " catch twenty two ".

Slowly things are changing and we all hope for the better, slowly services are being provided and we all hope they will come sooner, slowly the public are realising there are many good Fathers out there who cherish their children and want the best for them.

Most have been down and well trodden path that can sympathise and empethise whith everything we have been put through, not many would condone the death of children in any form, or the death of Fathers who have not had the support they need. Most are horrified.

I don't think that understanding, sympathy and empathy is a bad thing but it is an opinion of mine, that belongs to me that if someone has the mind to break the Law they will and unless the are locked up you will not stop them, if a person has a mind to hurt their children or other children they will, be it male or female they will.

As can also be said of mass murderers, thiefs, drug dealers, child molesters ect. ect. the laws are for law abidding citizens.

It is the mind set I question, I have thought about killing myself but have not thought about taking others with me, even my method would not have caused stress to any member of my family apart from the loss.

To take the life of someone you love as an act of sheer selfish foley, because if I can't have you no one can, takes thought and methodical proceedure, it is not done as an act of passion but rather calculated and in most cases to make another person suffer. Otherwise they would just kill themselves.

In an adverse way everytime this happens every father trying to get time with his children suffers, the process gets harder because of a small percentage of cases, AVO's become easier because there is more risk as viewed by the populas to the children, more feminists say I told you so, and more media hype drives sensationalistic scare mongering onto an uneducated public.

My opinion is mine and I don't need converts to it, but every time my daughters mother reads of another father commiting a hanas act it gives her the ammunition to legitimise her anguish about my daughter spending time with me.
And many might say that thats bulls%$t but this is her way of thinking not mine and there are many more out there who have been brought up with the same mind set as my X.

I do not want to see children grow up without their mothers or fathers we are all important to the life we have created they need us their whole lives and no matter how many times I read about these things or try to understand why, and like I have said I have stood with the rope in my hand. I can't understand the taking of a childs life, even if the parent is unfit or abusive, just because a parent has created it it does not give either parent the right to needlessly take it back.

Education and support is our only weapon against this, and considering how many Fathers are going through seperation and fighting to see their children I feel the amount of reported cases are fairly minimal.

Aprx 50% of couples in Aus, U.S.A. and Britt. are going through it and I feel that most Fathers should be congratulated for dragging themselves out of those holes and making a difference to their children against an horific system that continually tries to split them from their kids.

I don't see many papers knocking on my door saying " Hey against all odds your a great Dad and influence on your daughter because of you she is so well balanced and a valuable member of her peir group, can I write your storey"
Hell before it even got that far the X would take the credit.

I know a lot won't agree or understand my points but simply put I don't care, but I do respect your opinions and your concerns I just don't understand the subject matter.

Peace to all D4E

Attack the system - not the dad in distress.

Every dad in distress reacts differently. Some will just take it with a grain of salt. Others will take their lives and/or their children's lives. Who knows what a deranged dad might do tomorrow?

The problem with the Family Law system boils down to accountability. Where there's no accountability, the result is almost always chaos. It is human nature to be lazy, to do things the easy way - the path of least resistance. Unless somebody kicks his ass, he will do precisely just that.

If the magistrate is accountable, he will not simply sign the out-of-Court settlement. He will question the solicitors if the terms are against BIC. He will ensure that the impact of the breakdown on the children's lives is kept to a minimum. Likewise, if the other public servants (Family Court [FC] counsellors, child protection experts, et al) are accountable, they will not be slack in doing their jobs.

Due to no accountability, FC cases are badly handled. People then abuse the system. Unscrupulous lawyers take advantage of the situation to bleed the father to death. Cases build up and the FC gets into crisis situation. Fathers will no longer bother to seek help and take things into their own hands.

Why is the Family Law system so arrogant it can operate below the radar screen of accountability?




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The bottom line is, why should the mother be dictating the terms and the father has to go through all that hassle of fighting every step of the way just to see his children?

I posted this as it pains me to have fathers seen as child killers.

As stated no man in his right mind would commit such and act.

I feel for the children the father and the mother. Obviously there are no winners in a situation like this.

What this highlights most is the depths the system has driven some men and women to. Unitl the system changes events as unfortunate as this will continue to happen. The fact the government are doing nothing to fix it is a real problem.

A Sad and Tragic Event.

Sadly, yet another father took not only his own life but that of his two small children as well.

What is behind this tragic event?

Some authors suggest and strongly beleive that is an exercise in male power. Others may suggest that it is motivated by revenge, selfishness.

Neither, could be further from the truth than they already are.

“It’s the result of powerlessness and not of power’ “Many fathers say that!” according to one family court counsellor.(Is there Really a Fatherhood Crisis

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Tragically the closed minds of many refuse to acknowledge other possibilities which don’t fit their models. Sadly the voices of many men are not heard or listened too. What they have to say fall’s on deaf ears and closed minds, because what they are saying does not fit the political and sociological models being put forward.

The idea of male power and privilege is a feminist creation. Ask any ordinary man if he is has this imaginary power and privilege. Some feminists/women will then say that men don’t recognise it. It takes men much longer than women to recover from a divorce.

To even begin to understand how such a tragedy can transpire, one needs to understand the process of grief. Dr Kubler-Ross examined the process of grief associated with death and dying in extensive detail. She proposed 5 stages of grief,

Denial when the reality is to painful to be considered “this can’t be happening, it’s not true!” . In the denial phase an emotional numbness exists.

Anger when reality starts to break through the denial phase

Bargaining

Depression

Acceptance

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If when a person has had no previous experience with grief suddenly finds themselves in a situation where they are experiencing the extremely intense emotions associated with grief. These feelings can be so overwhelming it is even possible that they feel like they are going crazy or they are loosing it.

(It is important to remember that the stages of the grief process and the time of the process varys from individual to individual.)

For many fathers it is compounded by prejudice, bias. Not only is he grieving for the loss of a marriage/relationship but a whole host of other griefs as well.

For fathers who have children for access visit every time they return the children to the mother it is another “death” or period of grief that they face. This is compounded when the father returns to his place of residence and the silence is deafening. Little signs are left behind that children were once here. The toys still scattered on the floor, tools to be away, kids clothes dropped where they last left them.

Sadly for many men it is whilst they are in this grief process that they take their lives and occasionally the lives of the children they love and care fore. Others find dealing with the continual little deaths too much to handle and some will try to walk away and spend a lifetime trying to deal with the grief. Believing falsely that the grief will be easier to deal with if, they weren’t not confronted with it each and every access visit.

Everytime a father dies by his own hand. His story is lost forever. A story which on it’s own is just one, but added together with the stories of other men would begin to add a substantial weight to what is really happening.

Sadly men know intuitively that their stories will be used against them. Stories distorted to fit feminist models. It is well known that women are naturally much more articulate than men.

There is huge resistance to collecting data about fathers who suicide following divorce/separation. It is well established that other family members are at increased risk of suicide when one family member has already committed suicide. Yet ‘the fall-out’ will continue for generations as children who have lost fathers, themselves become adults and maybe parents, when yet this tragic drama gets replayed once again.

In Australia approx 2,250 men commit suicide every year. This is greater than the national road toll. Assuming 1,500 father’s commit suicide per year, over a ten-year period this is 15,000 lives lost, which then puts on average 30,000 children in the increased risk category. So therefore it is really “in the best interest of the children” for this to be investigated and steps taken to reduce this tragic toll.

Or are the Howls of protest by the feminists or maternal gatekeepers more important than “the best interest of the child?” For a gender which holds as one of it’s virtues the socalled “caring and nuturing”. There is a distinct lack of caring and nurturing when it comes to “disenfranchised fathers”.( THE DISENFRANCHISED FATHER SYNDROME

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Extremism catches hold when all hopes are gone, when the father has been stripped of everything except hatred.




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The bottom line is, why should the mother be dictating the terms and the father has to go through all that hassle of fighting every step of the way just to see his children?

Murder/suicide. A term used extensively in the media to describe a situation where a parent first ends the life of a child, then themselves.

While working as a Prison Officer I had the oportunity to speak to Fathers who had survived such an event. Afterwards while at University i did a little research.
In the majority of such cases the Offender, and I use the term loosely, commited these acts while in a Disassociated state of mind. many described the act as if they were not doing it, as if they were a spectator. Some actually ended up commiting suicide later, their remorse being so great at the realisation that it was themselves who had commited the act.

This state of Disassociation is a common defence in many crimminal cases which come before the courts. Unfortunatly the courts are forced to rely on the competing Expert Evidence. It is in the interest for the prosecution to prove that mental illness was not a factor, while on the other hand the defence is trying to prove the opposite.

It is interesting to note that pre-divorce counselling is compulsory, while post divorce counselling is not. If the Family Court is at all interested in the "Welfare" of the child, considering the rise in child homicide, more effort needs to be put into providing the proper support mechanisms for parents living with post divorce grief. Maybe even pre- custodial psychological screening of both parents to determine the effects that a court decision may have on either one, and where nescessary, recommend treatment where severe depression is found to be present.
Yes this may be expensive, but what is more important, a human life, or a new football stadium, Bridge, or fancy building with a pollies name attached?
I know what I think. But then again, changes to Family law may take years, but legislation for a politicians payrise, or to send boys off to war seem to be prioritised.

Once I had the Idea of legalising suicide and opening up centres where people could go to peacefully end their lives.

I expressed the concept to a couple of people and their jaws dropped and a look of horror came across their face.

Then I explained why I thought this would be appropriate.

I offerd the possibility that councilling of people using the facility would be compulsory and thus offering people who needed help a way of recieving ongoing treatment for the specific ailment they had. I suggested this would give an opportunity for those crying out for help to recieve it, those who had a chemical imballance to recieve councilling and medication, those who just worn and empty a way to rejuvinate.
All of which would be lives saved of people who may have pushed the envelope to far and accidentaly succeeded and killed themselfs, it would also reduce the related associated mental illness that may follow after finding a loved one that died by their own hand.
It could also reduce associated victims of suicide that is rarely mentioned those who are the inocents, they may be in a car that a suicidle person accidently crasses into, the cop who has to shoot, the truck driver from the head on and so the list will continue.

And lets face it for those who will be doing this no matter what, who will not chose life over death no matter what anyone does, then maybee some of the associated victims can be saved.

I know it sound rediculouse and costly but it sure would help a lot of people and save a lot of people.
Maybe not

Just thought I'd share something I thought about over 20 years ago now.