Hi,

Has anyone attended a property concilliation conference? Can you tell me what goes on, what is expected, what you have to do vs what you can do?

If the X is doing the wrong thing (and by Christ she is) do I have to attend or can I cancel and defer to a final hearing?

Thanks

DD

I went to one some time ago as part of the process of making a start on court action.

There was the child issues and then financial issues. form 13 financial statement, was the base of it all.

As the respondent I had the task of correcting the lies and providing proof of them, as well as supplying written evidence to support my own staements.

This was a few years ago so things may well have changed.

It was court orrientated and the mediator was only interested in if things could be negotiated. As my X was using our daughter as leverage and removed all contact and due to the system of the time I was being bullied into considerably reducing contact to near zero, there was nothing left to lose o I provided a truthfull account of the financial situation, she refused to accept shared responsibility ect and stormed out leaving her lawyer there, curt to the chase mediator was not sympathetic to either cause and was logical and rational when situation was out and explained. I do not believe the actions of her lawyer and my X went unnoticed and because I had provided everything essential in my response where could they go ?

I personally would suggest that to not turn up or attempt to negotiate and put your side across may be a disadvantage, even if you simply use this as an exercise in dealing with her in a discussion about finances it may give you a heads up.

With the new changes more enphisis is being given to mediation and negotiation to avoid court, the way I'm reading things is that if one party is not open to this process it can work as a negative.

Hope this helps a little, if I have got things wrong let me know and I'll try to re-educate myself.
All the best D4E

Thanks D4E.

I pretty well understand that to not show a willingness to mediate can work against me, but at the same time the property is the only lever I have to pull (house is in my name, so I could drag it out to a final hearing which would take about 12 months from whenever a date is set down at present).

I guess what I am looking for is a guide as to what might happen from someone who's been through this process recently.

My lawyer tells me all 4 parties turn up, and the lawyers first go in for a breif chat with the registrar to ascertain if there is any chance of an outcome, if so, we all go in, if it is unlikely, then the matter is kicked out for final hearing, that is about all I know.

In terms of setting the record straight, it was only a relatively short relationship, and I am extremely well documented - every receipt for every cent I ever spent on the house prior to and during the relationship; how much $ she put in to the mortgage when she moved in, what she paid, what I paid, who earnt what, how much she worked during the relationship of 3 1/2 years (very little); every credit card receipt, mortgage payments, all the physical work and labour I put in improving our home when I was not working 50hrs a week at the office etc - I can refute heaps of her scandelous claims which she has put in affidavit, so I guess I can make things crystal clear in relation to that, and have up to now and will continue to be fully open and honest about all of the facts (unlike her lies)

The other question is this: should I even come to an agreement on property when there are no final orders in place for the kids, and I am in limbo? I am still living in WA, she's in NSW with the kids; I'm looking for work in NSW at present but nothing has come up; so until I am settled in NSW close enough to the kids to have max contact with them; I can't possibly see how I can agree to a property settlement when final arrangements are not in place for the kids - at present they live with her, so as these things normally go, I expect she'd get the lion's share of the $, but if I can get over there and force an arrangementr where I have max time with the kids, i might have a chance of a better deal; problem is the property conference is in 4 weeks time and i still work and live in WA.

Any thoughts anyone?

DD

Confrences can be done by video link or phone.
My uunderstanding of the new system is that child issues are to be pentively sorted before financials.

There is usually a dead line for information to be submitted by your lawyer to hers and the court if this court mediation.

I personally just concerned myself with the lies on my X's affridavit and put realistic accountablity on her side as well as my own, with me it was just peanuts because at the time property value had not boomed.
This worked to show proof of marital debt, hense her responsibility to it.

You will have a fair idea of what you had before the relationship so state this as your personal equity, then work on input from the realationship and suggest a percentage input and stick to it refering to your proof.
You could quite simply atate that the house may be needed for the children whilst they are in your care if she returns to W.A. and as child issue's are not sorted, this combined with the fact that if both children and Father were in same state you would be looking at 50/50 shared parenting you feel unable to commit to the property settlement.

These are just some ideas and a different perception as to how a person may see their situation.

One of the biggest mistakes is to make it personal, you sort of have to transend yourself and look from outside " What eould I do if "

the registrar I saw was brilliant, he concentrated only on the facts was not swayed by the emotional blackmail and was quite direct on his last question " Can this be sorted out today ? " He even told the X's lawyer of for behaving inappropriatley. I would not say he was on my side I would say more to the fact he could see the sence in my replies and as I could back them up with documentation he could see the common sense.

Child issues was the reverse bullied by everyone in the room including the mediator and frustrated from not being able to speak my mind, it seemed they were trying to make me get angry and defend in anger, which I did not do.

The other arguement you may have is that you now have to re-locate to the eastern states to have a relationship with your children that could have been accomadated if she had not of absconded to the east and actively participated in allienating yourself from the children. And that when you are re-established you will be seeking 50/50 residence of the children in the near future.

which ever way it goes do not sign anything that you can not live with if worse comes to worse let someone decide whatthey percieve is fair ie magistrate. Some people are pleasantly supprised.

If you havent already start coalating your information and make copies of it to attatch to each cross reference.

I ended up getting a clear plastic loose leave folder and inserted relevant information cross referanced to my response and her application, I put a heading covering each lie and slipped coppies into the relevant page. This way I could take it to meretings with her info and my response as well as the evidence in one simple folder that was easily read and as I did the work I could quickly make referance to questions and statements.

Like I always say just ideas not advise, you think about how you mind best reacts to information, I suffer clinical depression and all it's foes like anxiety so I need to be focused and info needs to be at hand otherwise I'm just lost and my mind freezes and I go into melt down.

P.S. make sure you lawyer understands your instructions clearly, if you have a negotiating point make sure he knows it, the only one you can truely trust is yourself and even you are questionable at times

Thanks for the thoughts buddy.

I've got 4 lever arched files with every last detail, but like you said, it is worth me getting the specifics in one place so they are all lined up, and keep the library of files on hand if needed.

Your comments are spot on and aligned with my thinking around being unable to come to a final arrangement given I intend to move and (hope to) seek a 50/50 arrangement.

One of my dilemas is to get a full 50/50 arrangement, I will likely have to quit my line of work or put the kids in day care for the weeks I have them and I doubt that would fly with the FedMaj given the kids are so young (1 & 2); but it certainly would be reasonable in a couple of years time; the problem being how do I get orders which allow for that future scenario now which thereby ensure I get a fair deal on the property. .

Any thoughts?

DD

Hey DD

It's difficult at the best of times and really the property should not be taken into consideration for the future of your children but rather as a point of time in relationship. After all isn't that why CSA is paid to take care of their future.

You could try and emphisise this tact and work out a reasonable figure that covers her during this time as compensating for her financial and home duties.
For example for three years your input was say $ 530 000.00 and hers was $ 150 000.00 bills were ??? car payments ect ect ect...

If she put $50 000.00 into furniture or loan repayments, utilities and so on then that is her contribution.

The orders themself can have a sunset clause in there so to speak where you put the simple fact that you are re-locating in the near future and wish to have them re-addressed in 12/24 months. The ideal senerio is you re-address the orders as soon as your circumstances change I've had my daughter for 38 % care from just over three until the trog played head games and stopped visitation, this was overnight stays included. I effectively weened her from the bottle and the dummy because her mother was too lazy to take the time and put the effort in. By four and a half I had her back at 50/50.
Extreme prejudice was used to try and force me into every second weekend and half the school holidays and I had the goods on the money issue, hense at the end of the day I paid the ransom.

You may have to give a little in some areas to gain in otthers.

There is no set way of dealing with the courts because of the amount of lea way there is, there is no gurantees either because they work on the information supplied yet like it concise and to the point like a readers digest novel.

As far as the day care goes well hey it's the age of equal rightd again and this time men are becoming equal, there should be no problems in the tiome frame your talking with any luck the new system should have settled in by then it's pretty infintile at this point and cross over is difficult.

But at least if you are rolling the dice you are in with a chance.

My reply is all over the place and non commital because there are other factors at play that can change the situation rapidly.

You can't tell a Judge or majistrate what you want but you can put a good case forward showing fore sight and thought for the childrens future well being, this combined with a use able future parenting plan will go a long way.

They tried to tell me that because my daughter was at kindy she needed to be at her mums, so I rang the education department and another half dozen related social workers and government bodies and told them what I planned and ask if it was possible, they realy did a lot to boost my confidence because instead of getting berated I got compliments for my fore sight and as kindy and pre-school are not compulsory my daughter did not even have to attend but instead of just saying " She doesn't have to go and thats that " I planed for her to go to the school in my area. The lawyers tried to slide all sorts of things through on orders by consent I just wrote aletter explaining I would not sign for this reason and gave a complete discription of what was agreed upon and what was added in without consent.

I guess the point I'm trying to make was that keep it reasonable and factual and it will probably be easier.

You have the proof provide it at every opportunity not presice detail unless required but certainly generalise when talking and don't get drawn into retorting to taunts ( not easy but doable )

This is really disjointed because I keep getting interupted by a little body so please excuse me for that but please post again if nothing gells with you or even if you feel I'm on the wrong track, one thing I can take is critisism ( just not very well )

All the best D4E.

Well, the property conference is on Weds this week, and still awaiting counsel's advice on likely property outcome (should have it at the 11th hour I guess)

10 days ago I indicated to the X that final arrangements for the children needed to be in place before we could discuss property and told her I wanted to negotiate. I've been waiting for the advice of counsel before commencing this (so I know where I stand on $$) but to no avail - might have his info tomorrow, so tonight I called the X.

I told her I wanted as close as possible to a fully shared arrgt, working towards 50/50 time and care as soon as the kids are old enough for that to be workable given my work committments (which are driven by my C$A committment of $2146/month) and their present ages of 2y3m & 1yo. I suggested I initially have the kids 3 out of 4 or 2 out of 3 weekends while she is not working (she's on leave without pay from her job as a primary school assistant principal until Oct 08, and then only has to work part time until the youngest is at school, at which point she has to return to full time work). I then suggested the weekend arrgts change (ramp down) and mid week arrangements ramp up as she increases the amount of work she does and as the kids get a bit older, so as to maintain a 50/50 (or near as we can get to it) arrangement as circumstances change.

Anyway, she flat out refused me having anything else than every second weekend and perhaps some mid week time and would not and (or) could not come up with any options or solutions to facilitate my involvement with the kids - this is not uncommon.

Last weekend (9th June) I travelled to newcastle (still here now) to have the kids for a week, and arrived in the middle of the storms, floods and blackouts. I have the kids at my sister's house, and she had a leaking roof, and no power, no hot water, no heating etc as well as her own two kids (4yo & 9m). Despite this, my X was still extremely keen to deliver the kids to me (ie get rid of them for her "week off") regardless of the circumstances into which they would be entering. I convinced her to hold off for a day, but not for two, and she delivered the kids into the abovementioned situation despite my suggesting they spend a further night with her where she had power, heating etc etc; as it turned out, we got the power back later that day. Before she dropped the kids off, I asked if I could have the kids for an additional day at the other end of the week to make up for the lost day, and she simply said "no, I think what is in the (consent) orders is enough".

So much for "facilitation of the other parent's involvement" as per the Shared Parental Responsibility Ammendment Act. Just another example in a long line of incidents including refusal to facilitate phone contact ("I am holding the phone so you can talk to the children but not participating" is one which has been a regular. . ., and then there's my son's birthday last week, and I bent over backwards to encourage my X to come and spend some of the day with him as every child should see their mother on his/her birthday. Her response: "I've already cellebrated his birthday and feel uncomfortable around you and your family" (I wonder why perhaps because you unilaterally relocated my children from one side of the country to the other??? )

So there we have it, I'm trying, and she's not interested. I now have a job in NSW starting early Sept, and would like to sell the house in Perth, but it needs a bit of work to get the best sale price for it (I have good advice it is definitely worthwhile doing). When I try to get her agreement to me paying for the works and being re-imbursed prior to the division of the proceeds, she refuses and rants and raves that she is "over renovating" (hm what's that got to do with anything - she lives 5000km away???) - I respond by telling her that i think we have a problem and It might take final orders before the house is put on the market (it's the only lever I have left to pull).

So here we are, at a stalemate. The X has no idea of what shared parental responsibility really means and want's it all her way. I'm tempted to take it to a final hearing so she can hear it straight from the magistrate and maybe then she'll wake up to herself , even if it is going to cost me $60k it might be worth it but at this stage I feel I'm looking dow the barrel of a long messy situation.

I am now looking at drafting final orders tomorrow in extremely prescriptive (watertight) format with none of the bullshit ambiguity that solicitors seem to like such as "at other times as agreed" based on her recent behaviour (see my other post in the orders forum regarding my wishes to take the kids on a trip around Australia when they are old enough - when I asked her how such things would be dealt with, she told me as per the std clause (10 days after she refused my perfectly reasonable request for one extra day due to a blackout - given she has refused 1 extra day now, what on earth can I expect when I want to have them for 9 months in a few years time?)

I'd like to know if there is anyone out there who has achieved a full shared arrangement with very young kids under the current laws while working full time, and if so, how have you managed to make it happen, I'd love to have a chat if there is someone out there, ideally asap. Other than that, all comments are welcome.

Thanks,

It is not uncommon for a parent to appear to be desparate to dump the kids, but at the same time fight like hell in official forums to minimise the other parents share of care.

This is where the clause "and other times by agreement" becomes usefull. As long as core time is covered explicitely in the orders, then your interested are protected. The extra time clause allows parents to discuss different arrangements without one parent claiming "extra" time would be a breach of orders.

As for the concilliation conference, it would be best to make some constructive proposals, both re children and property. If there are particular reasons for delaying the sale, such as renovations to maximise value, it is resonable to bring these up. Be careful about raising issues such as lost value though. Remember, what is discussed in a concilliation conference is "confidential" and cannot be raised in court by the other party. That does not mean you cannot make an offer in wriing though, that may get considered later if the question of costs is raised.

The question of 50/50 care of very young children remains a difficult one. Most people think in terms of week about. This is not very practical for the young children for a start. The children need to see both parents often, with short gaps.
If you could arrange your work schedule to allow a couple of short days each week or perhaps a 4 day week, the Courts would would probably look favourably on at least significant time.

The idea of proposing graduated changes in care arrangements is also a good one. It demostrates that you are considering the practical realities of your situation and the children's needs. It will not be long before the childrena re at school, and other arrangements can work very well.

Most of all, do your research and keep focused.
Good Luck

Thanks 1AD,

Have taken some of the advice of others regarding keepgin things neats, specific and punchy in the orders. I have also drafted them in a 3-4 step stage process to get from the present up to school as follows:
(1) 3/4 weekends with dad until DJ starts day care with his sister 1 day per week
(2) when DJ starts day care 1/7, revert to 2/3 weekends plus 2 nights mid week with me either side of the day care (thinking tues & weds nights OR perhaps Friday or Monday would be better day care so as to have less too and fro for the kids)
(3) when kids increase day care to 2 & 3 days, then revert to 2 weekends out of 4, and increased mid week contact (or at weeks end so as to reduce disruption
(4) kids start school - commence 1 week about

Following that, I need to think through what changes might be required during teenage years and what changes might be required (2 weeks about instead of 1???)

The way I see it, I am and will continue to make constructive suggestions towards how we can achieve a shared care arrangement, and at present she has made no contribution whatsoever to facilitate that (I expect this will do her harm if she goes on with it); I am also being constructive in relation to the sale of the house, she is also being belligerant; and if that continues, she won't see a cent until a final hearing, so I guess I am giving her options. . . .

As far as property goes, I'd like to sort it out now, but not at the risk of taking it on the chin. If we get no where tomorrow, I'll likely make her a formal offer which I am happy with (and consistent with counsel's advice) so as to get myself into a position of power and protect the risk of a claim (by her) for costs at a later date should it go to a final hearing.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

DD

Had the property concilliation conference in Newcastle yesterday in the FMC with registrar MW.

Contrary to what I thought might happen, it went well. I made it clear to the registrar and the X that i would not even consider negotiating property until we all agreed that we would be working towards a full shared arrangement with respect to the kids. The registrar allowed us to then discuss kids matters for almost an hour and a half.

In that time I broadly outlined my plans as per my previous post on this topic. The X made a huge song and dance about 3/4 weekends with me being unfair to her and her extended family, she even broke down in tears. The registrar then kindly and gently reminded her that "the court would almost certainly grant me 3/4 weekends as children of DJ & OG's ages need frequent and regular contact with their father, and if weekends are the only time that can be achieved, then that will likely be granted given you are not working and spend the entire week with the childen" THERE IS A GOD!

We then managed to get on to property and make some progress, and I even managed to get an offer on the table (although informal and without all of the conditions I intend to add with it); fingers crossed she'll take it, I have given her a choice - accept the offer now and see some $ in 3 months time when I sell the house or I'll see you at final hearing in 12 months and put a tenant in the house to cover the mortgage until then. She's slowly (very slowly) realising her actions in January are not without consequences. . .

Will go now, I just had to share this with you, it feels like such a victory to have someone finally tell the X what I've been trying to tell her for months - the registrar basically re-inforced the notion of shared care and equal time and made it very clear that any judge will make orders consistent with what I am seeking. YEAAHHHHHHH!!!!!

Well done DD

Any step forward is a victory especially when it benefits the kids, good to hear she got shot down on weekend contact being an inconvieniance to her and the xtended family.

onward and upward .............................

All the best D4E

Hi DD

Your post brings back fond memories of my own mediation. A legal Aid (NSW) Family Law Conference (Just prior to Trial). My son, 26mths, had been staying with me every weekend for the past few months (1 night only). My ex with the support of the Child Rep and the supposedly independent Mediator tried for Every other weekend with the excuse that she need to "build a relationship" with our son, I asked what has she been doing for the during the time he was with her. She ended up with 1st W/E every month plus most of mid week.

The realy beautiful part is - She realy did need to build a relationship with him, for a lot of reasons, mostly related to her style of care or the lack of it.

My focus was always on Quality rather than Quantity of time (as long as I had very regular periods of Residence). It paid off big time. What we now bears no relation to the orders, but it works, is flexible and trust is building.

Hi,
I just read carefully the thread and would like to share some thoughts.

1) I decided long time ago that I want discuss and propriety- assets settlement before we have working parental plan for my child. I would not accept any discussion on this subject no matter what. There is one simple reason, it is inhuman.
2) I am very worried about the parenting plan which is not expandable as child grows or circumstances change..
For example, I would like to have 50-50 % parental sharing if/when I move to the city where my child reside. This can be explicitly mentioned in parenting plan or left open like " if the circumstances change the parenting plan will be reevaluated'.
But as far as I know if you do not come with the other plan this one is legally binding. And the beauty is that X can do whole kind of tricks to buy an enormous amount of time (years!!!!) before new plan is enacted. Imagine leaving few blocks from your child and seeing it only every 2 months ( as was the case when you lived e.g. in another state).
I really wonder how stubborn and careful one should be at this point.
Thanks

Hi,

Given both of my kids are both very young, my lawyer has advised me to seek orders which are staged, and gradual, and also require us to review the arrangements at certain points in time in the future.

He tells me that the future review can't be an order, but a notation to the orders. Not exactly sure of the difference.

Irrespective, he tells me it is not uncommon for staged orders to be put in place when kids are very young.

In any case will let you know how it goes as I will very likely go through the LAT process this year. I have moved from WA to NSW to be with my kids following unilateral relocation, and she is seeking FINAL orders whereby I only see the kids 3 nights per fortnight - thus my absolute confidence I'll end up before a judge if she does not wake up to hereself.

My approach is to be very stubborn and very careful. At this stage, my strategy will be to identify the key conditions upon which I will not compromise; and then not budge an inch. If we have the opportunity for further negotiations, I'll make sure i propose a sufficient no of conditions which I can later "trade off" with my "goodwill", and hopefully maintain my not negotiable items. This probably sounds harsh and manipulative, but you've got to step up to the plate and play their game which in the case of my X is manipulation.

Will keep you posted.