Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone has any experience in an ex breaching court orders. What happens if they do? I don't even have orders in yet, but I'm curious (and sceptical) about the long arm of the law in these circumstances. Is it another toothless tiger? I'm in Qld, if that makes any difference.
Thanks!

Hey alienated,

Can't speak from personal experience as to this point orders have not been breached, the process is fairly simple to initiate by making an application to the court for a breach, but it can become complicated.

As you are probably aware it can also get expensive and may take a couple of breaches before the court considers taking strong action.

I've talked to a few on the site that have been in this position and there are no guarantees, so you would really have to not follow this path on minor technicalities or it may be perceived as petty.

The ability is there that the judge need not be a toothless tiger and can send very strong messages if it chooses to so.

Like many questions in family law there is no straight forward answer.

I'm in this position...feel free to PM me.

basically i have the X on contraventions which should of bn heard on 14/02 but got ajourned till 19/03/08. Legal Aid wont asissit even though i have 10 seperate breaches and growing.

X claims children not safe & gone to DOCS to try to prove this - smart thinking coz if claims are substantiated then she can breach (if kids are at risk of harm). aside fromt hat she should get punished & i laso have a claim in for costs of serving the papers onto her

we'll see what happens...........

G'day Alienated,

I have had heaps of experience on this one and, there is a "contravention of order" form, you get from the FC. Its called a "Form 4" or something, and they'll tell you where to lodge it, you'll get a court date at some stage to have the matter heard. Record each breach in a diary, Try and use video or photographic evidence, for instance:
Just say changeover was to take place at McDonalds, obtain the security tapes that have the times on them so it can be seen you were there and they weren't.
Record phone conversations. Often they'll say "I'll just tell them I did drop them off and you're making it up" over the phone. So that's a good one to get.
The police who should have the power to enforce these orders, and who probably do but won't, can be contacted and used as witnesses later if need be, (that'll really annoy them though, and they may lie against you) and don't expect them to do anything other than tell you its a civil matter and to go back to court.
All this material can support your affidavit.
If there is abuse going on in the other parties household that can be proven then it may be an idea to get an emergency order made while the children are in your care giving you interim full time care until the evidence can be substantiated that the kids are at risk. If need be hold onto them til the week and then go in to court to have an emergency order made.
It may not be a toothless tiger but its a very, very slow tiger, as in 'years' perhaps.

Been there soooooo many times. just cant win! But hey isn't about your kids.I have a 15 year old daughter that i have not seen for 4 years she got taken out of NSW and moved to QLD i get a letter a month later to tell me she has moved and that I will never see her again but I will still take the cs money!
I then go to the cops they dont care. I then go to the solicitors they just want more money out of me that i just dont have and because i cant afford the money they dont want to know about it in the mean time my daughter has started school and i get told tht it would not be IN THE CHILDS BEST INTEREST that she should be brought back to Sydney. WHAT A BIG JOKE! Now i have to pay more money in C/S i dont get to see my daughter grow up and all because i am a male!

I'm hearing ya Jacko.

My orders just got changed at my contravention hearing i had for the X...was advd to drop this. I'm now down to supervised contact 2hr per week at a contact centre with a 2mth wait to get in!!! Thru false allegations...
that was heard on 19th march.....new court date 28th July (if i'm here then)

today i get a call from centrelink, along the lines of....your access has changed to 0% and you will lose FTB a & b & rent assistance i have and should have but we will backdate it to 16th Feb as per the applicant!!! WTF - the court orders.............no doessnt matter they were breached, was not actual time in YOUR care... So now my CS pmts go up to $380per fn & virtually no access...i say virtually as weighing up options at this stage & with a 2mth wait............

alienated
ive been there and done that basically if she breaches the court orders the family court will do nothing my ex breached family court orders on many occasions and nothing was done.however if YOU break them you will most likely be charged with contempt of court.it really sucks doesnt it .best of luck mate even when i had to get a restraining order out on my ex she would still come round threatening to kill me etc [witnessed by my neighbour who is J.P.and an officer of the very court the restraining order was sworn in] she also put a statue through the windscreen of my car,the police did nothing yet ill bet if a man did the same things he would soon be arrested.keep up the good fight mate and never ever give up ,your children are what really matters

Im going through a breach of orders myself at the moment. She has breached several parts of the orders and has been denied legal aid. As its a breach they are less likely to fun the ex, so that’s good news for someone willing to fight and can afford to pay a solicitor.

My experience thus far is that the local courts wont touch a breach, it needs to go to federal magistrates court and ive been told that in many cases – due to the costs involved, most parties (ex’s) tend to compromise more to get a solution. ... though i doubt mine will. The good thing about a breach is that the courts take it more seriously, .. my understanding is that once orders are made they expect them to be followed, breaking family court orders is breaking the law.

Thus far things are going well and im now due for federal magistrates court on the 31st of July... i think that if you have a job then its worth fighting a breach in the courts – mind you the ex has now got CSA chasing me in the hope that it makes it harder for me to afford a solicitor – good thing i was saving for this one eh.

Warning never video tape if you going to your ex. what end up you could face problem where it can backfire on your. My sister inlaw tape her ex after he refuse to give her children back she had a order in place that he must and do it .
once he spot what she did it back fire on her when he turn say that she had no right to tape him and judge threw the tape out saying that was attack to him
and he won. I seen one on youtube where the father was box in . the ex jump in his car and he tape all this and he got charge with beating her due to he try to pull her out of his car. so it doesn't look good doing it

so best not to do it . second part you can show up at your ex with the police to collect your child you must have court papers with you to show them it in court orders. she than must hand the children over to you,
Don't tape them or record them it will back fire on you. you have to get them to agree to do that . if you know that she not allow them to go call the police stand out on the footpath so you don't get in trouble. Is

Police can take action only if you got the paper on you to back it up .

BS. The police won't act even if you do have court orders to show them, i have proved that as, it happened to me. I would encourage anyone to record via audio or video everything you can. The police and the family court will always believe a lying woman instead of an honest men [ that happened to me too ], so even if it is thrown out of court you have nothing to lose anyway.

There has always been confusion as to whether any form of recording is permissible evidence in the family law court, because many of the decisions made are made so by the matriarchs discretion it becomes more about how the evidence is introduced and it's relevance.

A section in the family court regulations refers to the use of recording devices if you are in fear that the children are being abused. So it could be suggested that there is an awareness of this situation but there are strict criteria regarding the procedure via federal, state and other government institutes so be aware of the law before attempting any form of recording. This also extends to recording via mobile phone which has other restrictions on this form of recording.

The bottom line is that if you feel the children are at risk and you feel this evidence will be needed for prosecution then do it and introduce the evidence to the authorities via the family law act and regulations, if you are dismissed there would be a strong possibility that your case was weak and the recording irrelevant in the eye's of the family court.

Be smart about the introduction of your evidence rather than submit it in it's recorded form transcribe information as fact and if ask how or what proof then you can state why it is fact.

Many people have tried to use recorded information that has been entrapped from a party rather than natural and normal behavior and this is why in many cases it gets thrown out of court.

Yes Dave the system still has bias to work through but as discussed many years ago now this is not an overnight cure but a work in progress that will never move as fast enough as desired but changes are being made daily. There are more police now who do not take a side but rather state that to keep the peace one party must move on and in many cases it's the man due to the social belief of mum being the primary carer and needing shelter for the kids. Even if things change it will still be a prominent part of keeping the peace right or wrong.

Like it or not there are no real short cuts if orders are contravened you need to follow procedure, if you intend to go forth and harass someone and video tape them whilst this is being done it will not be constructive, all her X would have had to say is that he feared the children were in danger and her behavior would have supported any claim that she was manipulative.

Yes when you lay hands on a person in an attempt to force them to do anything it is assault a smarter person would have phoned the police and the video evidence would have been favorable.

Police can not enforce orders unless ordered by a court and it's usually on a federal level if they do get involved not state, in saying this they may try to negotiate or mediate a positive outcome.

Always play a smart game and never insight an incident.

Well what is a man to do then.d4e. If the court does not allow audio or video evidence, if they refuse to believe evidence from even some one as reliable as a JP, sherrifs officer and former acting magistrate, as they refused to do in my case, just how is a man to prove his innocence or get across that his child is being abused or neglected. Few fathers are as fortunate as i was, where my daughter lived close enough to me to vote with her feet.
Although this happened in america, i remember visiting the Glenn Sacks site early this year and read a story about a taxi driver picking up 4 young women. When he asked them to put out their cigarettes thay accused him of sexually molesting them and when he stopped his taxi to let them out they refused to pay and exhorted passers by to beat him up. The police intervened and actually arrested HIM and it was only because he had a video camera running in his cab that corroborated his story that they let him out , the perpetrators of course got off scott free because they were female. As is the case here, a man is guilty until proven innocent. Unless there is obviously an element of entrapment involved i believe audio and video evidence could and should be admissable as evidence. I believe the police often now use video evidence and/or CCTV footage as evidence in court and this is NO DIFFERENT.

Much of the problem comes down to how evidence is introduced Dave.

As you've alluded too in your post, this does not mean a family law judge has to accept any evidence put before them, they are not governed by the same legal boundary's as other legal institutions, they do not have to qualify their actions as much as defend them by qualifying their decisions regarding that decision makes the criteria they are governed by. Hence there are not many appeals that bear a judge making a mistake in his decision.

If it seems like a catch 22 it is, we have to rely on the ability of these matriarchs to see through deception and work through presented evidence. As I have said many times things are getting better for dads and this is partly due to a new gained understanding by both matriarchs and presentation by self representatives as well as changed guidelines.

I personally support recording as much as possible but doing this in a productive way and not one that may appear to be entrapment, once recorded conversation can be transcribed and portions will stick out as evidential but if your aim is to show how abusive verbally this person is to you it may be non-consequencial to the ability of that person to parent well. Many do not consider this and then wonder why their point is missed and the evidence dis-allowed.

What I advocate is the smart use of evidence which may mean presenting partial transcripts of a recording which rely on complete transcripts which then rely on the recording itself thus preventing the recording itself being dismissed but being a sound form of evidence if it is ask for.

Regarding the use of video evidence in court reflectively it is used as proof of what happened viewed from an independent source as such, with our use of video evidence it is automatically assumed we are a hostile force which then forces implicit behavior to show we did not act in a hostile manner.

There is no guilty until proven innocent accept in T.V. folk law thats why people are read their rights " Anything you say " is saying " your guilty and we will use what you say ".

Although debate can rage with regards to the pro's and con's it comes back to how it can be used to best benefit as evidence and though I have spoken to people who have just thrown in recorded evidence in the family law court and had it seen as permissible evidence there are more who have had it thrown out, after much discussion and advice on how best to introduce it one proven method seems to be the one I have explained which has been used by a few people.

Again the main thing comes down to presentation of ones case and the focus on the benefits for the child, there is an absolute need not to get caught up in attacking the other parent even when presenting evidence that shows therm as a bad parent.

If there is no guilty until proven innocent why are there hundreds of posts on here and other sites where men have had an avo slapped on them without a scrap of evidence exept the womans word, how are they given a chance to prove they are innocent. The practice of slapping an avo on a man during relationship break ups has almost become the norm in australia and even on the odd occasion where the womans evidence is found to be malicious they are never called to account for it, although of course the mans reputation is tarnished for ever,as i said, guilty until proven innocent, at least if you are male.

My apologies yes people are considered guilty until proven innocent in the eyes of the police anyway.

The abuse of the laws that are set to protect victims are misused add to this even more subtle changes that deem there only needs to be fear in a persons mind even if that thought is of their own creation and you have even more excuse for abuse. Yes I agree there needs to be more accountability for this abuse and even though I have heard of changes to make this possible I still have not heard of this being deployed as yet.

I've never said the system is not broken only that care needs to be taken when you are going through the system to make sure you are squeaky clean.

No doubt there is a long way to go before men are seen as equal to women or father equal to mothers but all the time people keep working towards this the more chance we have for change.

My reference to the assumption of innocence till proven guilty was colocial as it seems to be assumed that this is so due to so many movies that suggest it as fact while quite the opposite is reality.