I've known the guy for years and I never would have thought he would have done something like this.
But I have also known the child for her life, her lifestyle, her demeanour and know that what she said and how she said it was scary enough to the point you vomit in your mouth.
Do I disbelive a child against a grown man??
His actions since all this started are so out of character and bizarre that maybe I really didnt know him at all.
Its tough, and either way I feel sorry for this little girl and her mum. There was an easy road, but the hard one was they way its gone.
We are all a little confused as to what is going on with them, and the mother is putting forward a formal complaint, because of their sloppiness with assistance, the father and the mother and the child have been put under undue stress not mention the rift that it has caused between the family unit because of thier lack in providing support to them that they are supposed to provide.
The main one that has been repeated is "We dont deal with family law matters"
Police being JIRTS who were contacted by Child protections services and wont investigate due to the reasons I stated. No investigations have been carried out.
Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 2045 Location: Western Australia
Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject:
As I have expressed before, as a third party you only can base any opinion on what you are told and the facts in front of you that are witness too.
It really is easy to form a negative opinion of the person by the actions you describe, unfortunatly there are many factors that are unseen and unheard.
Many of us have sufferd at the hands of our X's who have comitted unforgivable acts and this in itself can make such things as changeover a battle ground.
No one is disagreeing with your choice of action but more simply the information that you have written so far is neither here or there and only now are you opening up and discussing certain points of the issue that have troubled you.
As a third party you have voiced your concerns to the relavant parties and they have had meeting with the necassary people, I assume ?
The question you need to ask yourself is " What is the mother doing about this. " There are provissions in the Family to stop contact in this situation, and as I do know that some parents can turn their head and deny most will act with vimma if their children even seem to be in danger.
If this father is agressive and argumentative and abusive when attending these meetings, in most cases it is duely recorded.
Now this is turning more into a discussion than a debate, All may learn a little and maybe you may find some helpful tools to help you through your suffering.
He currently has supervised, his choice of supervisor not court ordered, he wants shared care unsupervised,
The mother wants the alternate weekend, half school holidays and any other times they agree to, supervised by his family.
The reason why they both jointly agreed shortly after seperation that shared care was too hard was considering his isolated area and work. So he had what the mother wants now unsupervised of course and he had the child basically whenever he wanted because of his work.
Yes the mother proposed that and the father agreed, this was supposed to be until some sort of answer as to why all this happened, but until the father finally decides to attend some sort of counselling or whatever it is you do for this, to see the family dynamics and what the child was referring to or trying to achieve in making the comments if it wasnt from actual abuse it just isnt going to move forward. Although the mother being so timid and intimidated by him shortly I feel that she will give up and let him have unsupervised again. What do I do about that?? What if something did happen??
That is why I posted here, who decides what is false is and true?
How do they determine that when there are so many factors?
How do they apply that to different age children with different backgrounds?
This isnt only my concern, the mother wants to know if something did or didnt happen, and if it didnt why did the child say what she said, so hopefully comments like that never happen again. But no-one wants to help her find out. So what happens now?
Any parent would hopefully do the same, to ignore a child and return them to abuse is abuse within itself.
The only option she see's available now is to let unsupervised take place and hope and pray it never happened in the first place and that it never happens again.
Isnt that wrong in some sense, that it will be a childs word against a grown mans???
Ok. to start with myself and many others on this forum have been through false allegations so we do know a bit of how it all goes, first hand, in other words, from experiencing the whole process from start to finish.
One parent (notifier) makes an allegation against the other causes certain events to begin, reporting it to the police and a child protection agency (cpa), the name of which depends on which state you live in, if a solicitor has become aware of the allegation they must report it to theses and the courts.
From here the notifier is usually advised by the cpa or police to cease allowing all contact with the accused or at best is advised to only allow contact under supervision, but at this stage it is the choice of the notifier as to what happens.
most will agree that at this point they can understand the notifier witholding in the best interests of the children, if the allegations are real it is a good decission and no one at this point has had an opportunity to find out yet so better to err on the side of caution.
The accused goes into defend mode and if they want to continue contact they will agree to supervised as they have no choice at this point in time and are sometimes advised that it is in their best interests to do this as they will have a witness (contact supervisor) that will report to the courts when and if the time comes that they have done nothing wrong during that contact
That is where I wonder about your comment re the father ripping the children from the car and from their mothers arms as no supervisor will stand for that at contact changeover and would be bound to report such behaviour at some point in time
The police and the cpa investigate as they are required to do by law (they will have) and will form an opinion re the validity of the allegations and advise the parties as to if they are going to press charges or if the allegations in their opinion are unsubstantiated, this is the first indication.
Usually and in most cases that I have heard of and I have heard of many, at this point in time it is understood that the notifier has no real right to withhold unsupervised contact if the police and cpa say unsubstantiated, but many stil do and this is sometimes seen as the second indication, that is if the notifier does withhold then allegations and the motives are questionable
The normal thing here is that unsupervised is re-instated by consent but many accused want the supervised to continue until it hits court usually because they do not trust the notifier.
Now all of this can happen prior to an interim and at the interim the courts usually appoint a separate childrens rep (scr) and a family report writer (frw) and more if they think it is required such as shrinks etc and set a date for either another interim or a trial.
You will never get a 100% innocent or a 100% guilty or anyone to say that as there are only two people that know the truth, one in particular knows it without doubt and that is the accused, but from the actions of those involved and the material that will be handed up to a court, the court will make an informed opinion and that is what all others should and most will read into as either guilty or innocent, that is the best you are going to get.
If the court orders unsupervised at that point then the accused is innocent, if the court orders a continuation of supervised then the court is not sure and will wait for the material from the frw and the scr to be handed up and then will order unsupervised if satisfied that the allegations are baseless.
Understand that the court has a duty and will protect the children first and also understand that the courts usually do have a way of getting to the truth in ways that I was not and you are not aware of, you cannot fool them.
If the notifier is unreasonably withholding contact after police and cps say unsubstantiated and is waiting for an interim then you must question the motives of the notifier and the validity of the allegations, this is fact.
If the court re-instates unsupervised contact then you must believe that the accused is innocent, if you do not you are not helping your friend as you have a duty as a friend to her and her children to help her see the light, because if he is innocent she stands to loose a lot if she persists in a negative way.
the laws have changed recently and do not tolerate the guilty and that can either be an abuser or a false accuser.
If he is guilty he should be tortured in public and left on an ant hill to die.
_________________ :: that which does not break you, makes you stronger ::
Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: abuse
aussy, i have jusr re read some of your posts and i do want to make myself clear on some things.
no mother should be criticised for wanting to protect her children and making known any wrong doings and in fact should be complimented for doing so.
she should also not be fearfull in doing so but at the same time should hold an open mind, but it understandable should she not be able to as it is a terrible thing to be confronted with, emotions etc run riot in such situations.
the indicators will come as a matter of course, particularly after the interim and it is extremely important that she take notice of them when they do, and for you as a support person.
the important thing in all of this is the children first and as she has done her job in reporting the abuse she and you should let the system take over as they will do anyway, in other words niether she or you should play judge at this point in time, if you do you are both in danger of letting it all take over and cloud your focus, keep an open mind.
the children are "safe" at the moment because of supervised contact so there is no apparent or immediate danger of physical abuse.
at this point in time there is only one person that really does know the truth (that is certainly not you, you could not possibly know it) so you should not be forming opinions just yet, be patient and keep in mind the children, their emotional wellbeing and their rights, not just what the parents say or want.
our duty foremost is to the children, and you should not discount that it could even turn out to be emotional abuse, the courts will give you the answers, but no matter which way it goes you are in a position to support your friend and this also is your duty.
in supporting her you are also supporting the children, but make sure that is comming from reality or that support can be damaging to her and the children.
please aussy, keep an open mind at this stage, for the childrens sake.
_________________ :: that which does not break you, makes you stronger ::
Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 2045 Location: Western Australia
Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject:
Someone once told me a very long time ago that it is easier to believe the worst in people rather than look for the good.
As Aussie has already said forming an opinion from the limited knowladge is dangerouse and can spiral out of all context.
If the mother is willing for contact to happen then trust her judgement she will be working with more knowladge than yourself.
I had extremely close contact with someone who accused their pop of molestation this person later rebuked the admission sighting jealousy over a cousin who she thought was getting more attension. I am not so stupid to suggest that this child is lying more simply that for over ten year this person lived a lie that she made up, yet I myself consoled her.
There are a lot of different factors that could be at play and sometimes personal judgement can be wrong.
"I had extremely close contact with someone who accused their pop of molestation this person later rebuked the admission sighting jealousy over a cousin who she thought was getting more attention. I am not so stupid to suggest that this child is lying more simply that for over ten year this person lived a lie that she made up, yet I myself consoled her.
There are a lot of different factors that could be at play and sometimes personal judgment can be wrong."
I so agree with you. Around eight years ago a little boy I know made a false allegation. He was ten or twelve at the time. He created hell for more than one family although no charges were ever laid. Needless to say, the young man allegedly involved was shattered and distraught and has never recovered. He is happily married now but the cloud hangs over him and he has never been exonerated publicly.
Recently, in a private conversation, the alleged victim (now around 20) confessed he made up the lies to get the older boy into trouble and to see what would happen. He said nothing had ever happened between them. He still has no idea of the life long implications of his deception and is almost nonchalant about the accusations.
Children are capable of lying as we all are. Unlike adults, they seem to lack understanding of consequences and long term implications for everyone involved. (some adults are like that too)
Child abuse is a terrible crime, unforgivable in my book.
Another crime is an innocent man falsely accused and vilified for a life time.
Let all men and women be innocent until proven guilty.
Without evidence we might all stand accused.
Just an interesting point about the brain and how it functions. Did you know that many thousands of people remember being at Woodstock? Many more thousands than were ever there in reality. I guess that proves that if you watch enough movies and TV, read newspapers, see lots of documentaries, you can convince yourself you were there.
I found 9/11 my closest comparable experience in that I watched it on TV, live, and then over and over as repeats. When I went to New York a couple of years later, it was all so familiar. I could easily have been convinced I had been there before. Just something to think about.
The mother is definelty keeping an open mind, which at times confuses me to think that she may not believe her own child. But when I think about she was in a relationship with this man for years and i guess a part of her is saying, not that she doesnt disbelive her child but there is the possibility that the child was doing it for other reasons. I guess I tend to think that a child of tender years wouldnt know how to lie, or even the knowledge at that age to say what was said.
I guess she knows the devastating impact it holds on everyone.
Im trying my hardest and keeping my opinions to myself. I guess because i do that, then i needed to let it all out.
No-one will ever know the truth except for 2 people, the child and the father.
It definetly destroys familys and individuals.
I just hope that in the end the child is safe and never has to face abuse of any kind.
Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 2045 Location: Western Australia
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:30 am Post subject:
I found one of the situations that effected my daughters conception of things at a young age was when she overheard other talk.
She would overhear her siblings ( my step-children ) put me down and say nasty things, this originated from overhearing their mother lie to the scum who dumped his own wife and kids to continue an affair with mine.
They both had to blame the other parties to justify their actions and subsiquent abuse of the children by manipulating the truth to the point of brainwashing them. The children then took the path of least resistance and folded to the pressure because if they didn't it would continue until it they did. Now to justify the guilt they suffered they used their mothers approach and what they have been taught since birth, they blamed someone else and justified the lie.
This ends with my daughter.
At three years old she had the understanding of manipulating others for her benefit. Contact had been removed by her mother to make myself suffer because I stood up for my childs rights to have stability. This gave total control to the mother and her other children pluss the boyfriend.
It took about 2 day's for her to realise and remember her dad when she finaly was alowed contact with myself.
For six months pluss it was a constant barrage of " Dad they keep saying nasty things about you and hurting my feelings "
Now the thing is she was articulate in what she repeated and must have studied charectoristics very well, to the point you would have yo assume she was visibly present when these things took place, not just overheared.
She mimiced what was said and manerisms to the point she could assemble her own lies with the help of an adult encouraging her by leading words and attension.
At my home I would excuse others behaviour and let her know that it was OK for others to feel the way they do and I above all forgave their opinion and she should do the same, it run out of legs because she didn't get the attension.
At her mums every word was hung on and drawn out and embelished that they would help her construct lies and exagerations. This was done unwittingly and unknowingly because this is what had been taught to the mother from her mother and the children learned the same. Attension was given for a negative story and possitive stories recieved a ho hum response.
When a parent grills a child for information they are likely to recieve what they want to hear. If the child has been made aware of " bad touch good touch " and they are inenvertibly led or grilled about it then confussion may occure as to what is inprinted on their mind.
In my case I was fortunate molestation was not the weapon of choice guilt was.
All I had to do was be Dad and let my daughter make up her own mind as too what others said in her pressence about me, I was lucky that she was honest enough to tell me so I could tell her it was OK and forgivenes is better than guilt.
I was threatened to have accusations used against me if I didn't tow the line and agree to everything, but nothing eventuated , perhaps the kids would cop that lie.
But what happens to the Dads who's childrens mothers alter their memory by brainwashing it with their lies till the children do not know what truth is or lie ??
What happens when a parent puts that much fear into a child that the child is physically stressed by spending time with the other parent who loves them ??
What guilt would you feel if you found out that this parent was infact justifying their own actions by encouraging or exagerating a situation to the point where the child seeks attension in this manner ??
It is totally unrealistic to assume a child of such tender years does not how to lie, unless you have not been arround children.
From the time they can express themselves they know how to protect themself with a lie, some of my fondest memories are the obviouse lie's my 2 year old daughter tried to get away with, simple inocent and avoiding trouble.
Most parents will tell you the hardest thing is to not burst out laughing whilst telling them off.
I agree that children react to the information that they are given but you can never assume that their recollection is situational with out other forms of input, this is why proffesionals are used to observe certain tell tale signs that are not so obviouse or misleading.
To assume that she knows the devastating impact is preposterous, whats being suggested is the opposite. That she is in no way aware apart from the fact that she gets attension. And remember attension is a quick learning tool as to who high lighted the situation or how this came about even yourself are too far removed to have an oppinion.
The forum does not only contain Dads fighting for their childrens rights but also Mums doing the same as well as new wives, husbands, partner, extended families, supporters and friends of these people and some of their children as well, and not forgetting the forgoten victims the Grandparents.
With such a variation comes those who suffered abuse in varying forms from their own childhood and those who are breaking the cycle of abused shown to them.
No one is saying this occurance does not exist, we all agree that it does but we are not in the middle ages where people used accusations to have people hung, burnt at the steak or beheaded because they didn't like them.
Accusations should be adressed and followed through to their conclussion by the relevant person and authority.
And as many have expressed in differing sections here abonished from society.
Why is it that you do not trust the childs mother to make a compitent decission for her daughter ?
Is she a habitual drug user ? Alcholic ?
Why are you so sure your opinion is the right one ?
Is there underlying reasons that have struck a cord about the situation ?
Is it possible the mother is keeping an open mind because she realises what processes have been followed and is aware of what may be the problem ?
The fact that more child molesters are not paternal but relatives or partners of the parents as well as close family friends. Again not that this does not happen but statisticaly.
And I would suggest that most alienation begins with sympathy from close family and friends consoling through anger and opinion, then just snowballs and yes there are exeptions to my suggestion.
I guess I just don't know your place in all this ?
I'm not often curious, but I have this feeling there's something else, something you need to say.
If you hold onto this with out knowing truth or having the faith in the mother you will eventually justify youe own suspicions into reality. You may be right and justified with the minimal proof you have to form your opinion on. But what happens if you are wrong, what happens to the relationship you have with the mother and child if you constantly refuse to trust her ? If you are just holding your opinion against a level headed mother, a loving father, statistics and a physcologist.
Your removed yet stogent .
You read but don't listen .
Do you still have contact with the mother ?
Does she know you reported her daughters father ?
You ask how we determain the risk to our children and how we deal with our concerns as parents.
Well thats what being a parent is about.
Conatant apraisal of every situation taking inot consideration the individual child, their age, there stage of maturity and how they handle the tools we provide as parents.
We have to trust our children to be honest and recognise when there not, we have to judge their problems to how it will efect them and advise them with out apearing to interfere, we have to let them go before we are ready and smile and be proud of their indipendance.
Every time they are away from us we worry and miss them, when they come back we've got to keep stable rules even though we want to just spoil them till it hurts.
We share them with everyone in their lives and watch as they admire others and smile at their faces upturned with awe wishing it was us.
And thats just one afternoon.
It's what most parents do day in day out.
Who decides ? We do and sometimes we make mistakes, when we do it could be years before we realise it, but we bear the cross for them and always try to keep them to a minimun.
Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: OK here goes
Please note this is also posted in the tell your story section of this forum.
I have been separated for a year now, Turns out the breakup was manipulated so she could spend more time with her best friends husband, and her girlfriend and....... well you get the picture. I walked out with a suitcase and left her the cars and everything. She had never worked and I thought I was doing the good father thing leaving her the means to feed and clothe the kids till she got a job. Silly me.
Throw in a years seperation, 4 attempts at reconcilliation ( she was busted each time with the affair still happening) a pile of debt she wanted me to take while she kept all the assets. There are 4 kids in total, 18, 13, 9, 4. All have different fathers (yes I know it should have told me something) miss 4 is biologically mine but I have always taken them all as mine with no hesitation.
I finally met someone who I have just been waiting for all my life. Now I know what a partner should be and I still shake my head at how lucky I have been.
It all came to a point a month ago when she went away for 4 days on a 2 day conference. It was arranged I would stay and look after the kids at her place (3 kids) as I am flatting and 3 kids was too much for them for 4 days. Flatties are awesome but they are also newly weds starting a family.
Typically the night before I was meant to stay she changed her mind and got the eldest daughter to stay and look after them. What a disaster.
Miss 13 was caught sending pictures of herself and arranging to spend the might with an 18yr old boy.
Miss 18 the one looking after them broke her foot and every time we attempted to contact the ex she would not reply to calls. It got to the stage 5 different people were trying to ring her and leaving messages and she turned her phone off till 12:30 the last day. She tried claiming it was "reception" problems lol.
She returns and realizes she had stuffed up, no food left in the house for the kids, police had been notified by the school on miss 13 etc.
I ring her the next morning and didn't hold back. I wasn't abusive but I was very firm and was taking none of her usual rubbish. She has always refused to put any arrangements in writing so I informed her I would be seeking an order through the courts regarding access which changed to suit whatever she felt like and I would also be seeking a formal division of assets. Her conversation was very unusual and she used terms and phrases that had obviously been quoted to her regarding these topics.
The one main thing that stuck in my mind was she skirted around the subject of child abuse and kept mentioning the way I used to hug my kids all the time. Her idea of a hug was telling the kids to get off her or go away so she could have a smoke.
I was worried and my girlfriend (as mentioned above) turned to me and said "that call means trouble" HELL YES it did.
2 days later I received a phone call from the police asking me down to the station to give a statement regarding an allegation of sexual abuse on miss 13 and comments from miss 4 worried them. Luckily I was sitting down when I got that call. That was the worst phone call I have received to say the least. I was destroyed.
I then had to ring my girlfriend, who has a 13 year old daughter and tell her that. My flatmates worked with me and I had to break that news to them ( he has a young son) and my mother coming over to Oz to seethe kids. Can you imagine ringing all those people and telling them you have been accused of being a monster like that??
MY God what a boost when every one of them showed no doubt or hesitation in supporting me. My flatties asked where they could go to make a statement regarding what they had seen from the ex and how I was as a father. My girlfriend picked me up from work and took me straight back to her place and mum said words I cannot repeat her about the ex's pedigree.
On getting back to the girlfriends house she had a friend sitting there that had not only been abused herself but both her daughters. I just about turned and ran out the door!! Her friend sat down with me and we had a frank and awesome conversation. She told me what happened to her and her experiences with the courts and at the end she turned round and said she believed me, "if she hadn't I would have no testicles left"
I had no idea how many people were backing me up till then. Getting that support was incredible as it sunk in just what sort of person I was being accused of being.
I sat for 3 weeks talking to any lawyer I could find (free) trying to imagine what the allegations actually were.
I refused to give a statement based on advice from 3 separate lawyers. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT
Every lawyer I spoke to and every advice line followed the same theme. The police are not there to prove you innocent. They are NOT like the TV shows. All they want is information to fit the crime and ignore the rest.
3 weeks on I finally rang the police for an update. I had heard nothing from anyone including my kids. I was so relieved and angry when the policeman in charge said they had decided not to proceed further. Relieved as that was gone, angry because it was evident form the call they haddecided that weeks ago but not bothered to tell me. I am still waiting on a copy of the police report to find out what I allegedly did.
Strangely (sarcasm there) the problem with miss 13 and the 18yr boy had disappeared, nothing was made of the weekend away and no food, or miss 13 looking after a 9 and 4 yr old till all hours of the night and many many other issues. CPA had nothing on any of that. They do now though.
So now the police have dropped the issue, no charges were ever laid. The ex is still refusing all contact with the kids and luckily for me is running on old information regarding access and the courts.
My appointment is for tomorrow to start the mediation process and she has already stated she will not participate in a text to me. Looks like a long hard battle to get my kids but I am going to apply for custody of miss 4 who is the only biological child and shared time with mister 9. I have always stated since the separation miss 13 was old enough to make her own decision as she was going through the teenage I hate you stage.
My friends have stood by me all through this and I have found some new ones that have gone through the real thing and can see the manipulation of miss 13 by the ex. She is a master of manipulating the kids and getting them to do exactly what she wants. That is why I want miss 4 out of there.
I have skipped a lot of nastiness and crap from the ex,the things she has done to herself, the kids and me has destroyed our lives and will take years to rectify. This was just the latest in a long long line of s$%t.
So if anyone reading this has also been falsely accused remember you are not alone, you are sadly one of many. Be careful who you tell as mud does stick but talk to the people who know you well. Tell the truth all the way through and keep telling yourself you DID NOT DO IT.
There is a world of difference between being accused of doing it and actually doing it.
Any advice on the process from now on would also be greatly appreciated. Mediation is under way for the certificate and hell she might surprise me and 'be over it' and attend mediation but that is doubtful. I am also going to court for the split of assets, no house involved but she sure as hell is not sailing into the sunset with all the stuff and leaving me nothing but debt. If she can spend $10 000 on clothes, jewellery, shoes and trips away then she can afford to pay half the debts too.
All times are GMT + 10 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2
Page 2 of 2
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum